Help Type , material and area??

[Tom Clark]

Unknown provenance except that it is East of the Mississippi, thought I remembered TN but not sure.  Given to me.
Recognize the types or material??
Thanks

[Steve Valentine]

Hard to really say. I see a piece or two that look like they may be Flint Ridge and a couple that look like Carter Cave so they could be Kentucky, Ohio, Penn. Tenn.. To me though the Birdpoints look like Louisianna/Mississippi/Alabama types or at least southeastern types.

[Tom Clark]

Thanks, Steve

[joshuaream]

I don't see very many familiar types, a lot of 'close to' and 'could be' types, but nothing that really screams one area in particular.   Maybe South East?

[dulcimer6]

Hey Tom,, most look Scallorn,Reed and a few Mississippian triangles also see three or four Novaculite points from the Ouachita area,,my guess is south Ark or into La. the Scallorns look like what we have up here in the hills of Arkansaw.

[Tom Clark]

Sweet.  Thanks, guys, now I do believe they are SE points, likely LA.  I'll have to look up Scallorn, Reed, we don't have those in FL....  Those type names give me a starting point for identification.  How can you tell novaculite, by color or "sheen"??  Pardon me, LOL, I don't know about anything but FL stuff!

[dulcimer6]

Tom,,In the first photo,,,the little Scallorn,,bout seven o-clock from the penny  little "pink orange" thingy is heated Novaculite and another at 12:30 on the top row,,Novaculite can come in a variety of colors,,clear,black,smoke,tan,brown,orange even red..most after heated will be somewhat translucent. we see very little up here in the north part of the state,but lots of it in south Ark,,Fouke monster guy is the closest to the mother load. I also see a couple Nodena (willow leaf) type, these are mississippian also. Novaculite raw,, is not knappable,,it has to be heat treated to be knapped.
Just google Novaculite,,,and look at the images,,,,gives you the best look at the many colors. raw and heated

[KnifeHunter]

Tom,,In the first photo,,,the little Scallorn,,bout seven o-clock from the penny  little "pink orange" thingy is heated Novaculite and another at 12:30 on the top row,,Novaculite can come in a variety of colors,,clear,black,smoke,tan,brown,orange even red..most after heated will be somewhat translucent. we see very little up here in the north part of the state,but lots of it in south Ark,,Fouke monster guy is the closest to the mother load. I also see a couple Nodena (willow leaf) type, these are mississippian also. Novaculite raw,, is not knappable,,it has to be heat treated to be knapped.
Just google Novaculite,,,and look at the images,,,,gives you the best look at the many colors. raw and heated

,,all good info but one fact..Raw noveculite is very knappable and was used by early man and Black cannot be heat treated at all..But the rest of what you covered on the material is solid..We actually have a second motherload source just 25 miles north of me here in SE Okla.in called the Potatoe Hills..It has mineable outcrops of Noveculite,or did..and yeah John is sitting on a good source..KH

[KnifeHunter]

Unknown provenance except that it is East of the Mississippi, thought I remembered TN but not sure.  Given to me.
Recognize the types or material??
Thanks

Tom,, I am in somewhat of agrreement as well that SE likely west of the Mississippi river...types? actual materials? not found by you 100%..so due to your not collecting anything except what you found best send them to me and I will sort through them and pass them on..lol..   Its hard to really type materials and even points by photos alone..Good Luck!! KH  ,,oh ps, no need to worry about my head swelling, i get tagged neg twice for every pos you or anyone else gave me..LMAO..truth is, I do not care anymore,,That number is dam sure not me..But Thanks Tom..Your support means alot...KH

[dulcimer6]

Knife Hunter,,,if raw Novaculite is (very) knappable,,,,,,,,then why do they heat treat it ?? raw Novaculite is also used for whet stones,,bout as knappable as Limestone ,just google (Arkansas Sharpening Stone).....read about it. also the heat treated black novaculite looks alot like high  grade Pitkin,,only after it is heat treated.

[billmcamis]

Tom, the points look to me like they are made out of high quality Middle Tennessee cherts.

[KnifeHunter]

Knife Hunter,,,if raw Novaculite is (very) knappable,,,,,,,,then why do they heat treat it ?? raw Novaculite is also used for whet stones,,bout as knappable as Limestone ,just google (Arkansas Sharpening Stone).....read about it. also the heat treated black novaculite looks alot like high  grade Pitkin,,only after it is heat treated.

..Your correct it is used in whetstones and makes a fine one.I will try to answer you best I can..The early peoples did use and make points from raw noveculite.It was a hard chert to knap no doubt but easier than some others.Just recently archeologists have discovered sites showing signs and evidence that paleo man heat treated chert..In the Early Archaicand Late Paleo noveculite and other materials were absolutely heat treated..This did two things it added beauty (which early man and later cultures and times valued highly) and made Noveculite and other cherts much easier to knap and in some cases added strength..I am not argueing with you. Just stateing a fact thats knapped in stone so to speak..However black,which you see knapped raw and its noveculite could not be heat treated,why,Iam unsure but that is fact..As with many early point types few are found of some materials..This may have been due to the difficulty in obtaining large cobbles..This may explain you not finding points of raw noveculite but I assure they do exsist..But Heat Treated Noveculite is simply beautiful to look upon..KH

[TxKnapper]

As a knapper I will put my 2 cents in on my experience with novaculite.  I have seen very little evidence of points being made of raw novaculite although there have been several tools made from it.  It is simply too tough a material raw to work well enough to make points out of except crude ones.  All of the raw Arkansas novaculite I have worked needed some heat treating to work into something useful.  Sometimes you can heat a material just enough to make it work well but still retain the look and strength of the raw material.

Now the Potato Hills novaculite is a completely different story.  It can be an excellent material raw but the probably is that I have yet to find any outcroppings that would be of use to quarry.  It is simply too folded to get much solid material.  I have collected from many roadcuts and dirt roads in the area and usually have to beat up a ton or 2 of large blocks to get a few small 3 to 5 inch bifaces.  Most are a translucent white to yellowish color.  There are several veins though of apple green, pale green, black, reds, purples, pinks, blues, and a myriad of other beautiful colors.  Most of the colorful stuff is in thin veins and is too fractures though I have found a few pieces that I could take a flake off of to make a bird points but nothing I could biface out. But in the same area as the Potato Hills Novaculite you get the much better and more solid Woodford and John's Valley black flints.

Thats my experience as a knapper and collector of raw material.

Curtis

[KnifeHunter]

As a knapper I will put my 2 cents in on my experience with novaculite.  I have seen very little evidence of points being made of raw novaculite although there have been several tools made from it.  It is simply too tough a material raw to work well enough to make points out of except crude ones.  All of the raw Arkansas novaculite I have worked needed some heat treating to work into something useful.  Sometimes you can heat a material just enough to make it work well but still retain the look and strength of the raw material.

Now the Potato Hills novaculite is a completely different story.  It can be an excellent material raw but the probably is that I have yet to find any outcroppings that would be of use to quarry.  It is simply too folded to get much solid material.  I have collected from many roadcuts and dirt roads in the area and usually have to beat up a ton or 2 of large blocks to get a few small 3 to 5 inch bifaces.  Most are a translucent white to yellowish color.  There are several veins though of apple green, pale green, black, reds, purples, pinks, blues, and a myriad of other beautiful colors.  Most of the colorful stuff is in thin veins and is too fractures though I have found a few pieces that I could take a flake off of to make a bird points but nothing I could biface out. But in the same area as the Potato Hills Novaculite you get the much better and more solid Woodford and John's Valley black flints.

Thats my experience as a knapper and collector of raw material.

Curtis

..Good to see you post Curtis....Well I suspect that thats exactly the source of Noveculite in my area.I did not think about there being that much of a differance.But you would know..Now those ancient ones knew where to find that potatoe hills Noveculite..I do think that there was a great use of cobbles of it from the local creeks and rivers but do think they knew the places that they could maine a good source of it..I know you have searched hard for that source in the Tater Hills..But it may not and most likely is not within the means of mining now..Good point though and one well learned today by me..I really did not think there was so much differance in the two locals and there material..I do find all those colors you speak of..They are beautiful...KH